binfordm715 : HELP!!! I'm in turn signal hell

Re: HELP!!! I'm in turn signal hell
Post by brute4c on May 1, 2006, 10:13am

You wrote that you hookedd up with:

B -- 22 (Correct)
E -- 22/460 (Correct)
L -- 22/461 (Wrong, s/b hooked to 461)
K -- 460 (Wrong, s/b hooked to 22/461)
J -- 461 (Wrong, s/b hooked to 460)
24V hot lead to 460/461...if this is the wire that is 24 volt hot directly from the 3 lever light switch and only hot when the top levver is moved to a position of ther than top center, then this is ORIGINAL WIRE A in the above post and s/b hooked to 460/461 as you have listed.

The other wires are not needed anymore as they were wires that connected between the turn signal switch and the DB...those wires are:
B, C, D, E, F, G

REMEMBER that there are, were in your case once upon a time, 2 wires at the DB labeled as B and 2 labeled as E.

One of the B wires and one of the E wires were wires that went directly to the Sparton turn signal switch.

The other B wire should have come directly from the 3 lever light switch to the DB...this is the brake switch signal to light the brake lights. If I remember right you had something added in this circuit...dont need it if you have a stock pressure switch and a stock 3 lever light switch. If you take the cannon plug off of the rear of the 3 lever light switch you should be able to see the letters of the pins on the socket next to their holes. The one for wire B at the DB is pin C at the 3 lever light switch...so if you find continuity between pin C at the 3 lever and a wire at the other end, thats the one that we want connected to wire 22 in your new trn signal setup.

The other E wire should have originally had a ring trminal on it, then, after leaving the DB, would have run into the wire harness and exited the harness again on the drivers inner fender, terminating in a female connector as wire 22/460...that end is already plugged to a rear harness wire where it should remain. If you got the connection harness from Star Electric, there should be a 22/460 wire...the end of this wire E should have the ring terminal cut off, if yours still has it, and a new male end made onto there, then plug that new male end into the new female end on the new connection harness.

Let me know if this helps....

I remember you had some kind of circuit breaker in the system...thanks EL for the ID...I would remove anything but the wirs mentiuoned on the page I linked...the system doesnt need them and it may be preventing things from working right...simpler is better because its complicated enough!!

Hoping this works, though expecting more questions!!

Re: HELP!!! I'm in turn signal hell
Post by binfordm715 on May 1, 2006, 12:23pm


Quote: <TABLE class=bordercolor cellSpacing=1 width="90%"><TBODY><TR><TD width="100%"><TABLE class=quote cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=2 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD width="100%">You wrote that you hookedd up with:

B -- 22 (Correct)
E -- 22/460 (Correct)
L -- 22/461 (Wrong, s/b hooked to 461)
K -- 460 (Wrong, s/b hooked to 22/461)
J -- 461 (Wrong, s/b hooked to 460)
24V hot lead to 460/461...if this is the wire that is 24 volt hot directly from the 3 lever light switch and only hot when the top levver is moved to a position of ther than top center, then this is ORIGINAL WIRE A in the above post and s/b hooked to 460/461 as you have listed. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Okay. I swapped the three wires around and got the turn signals and hazards working correctly. Thanks!!!

The only deviation from what you wrote, Jon, is the 460/461 feed is always hot, regardless of the top lever position. So the feed is coming from a different location. I'll just leave it alone, since I doubt this thing will be seeing any night time combat anytime soon. If it does, I'll have to remember to pull the plug on the turn signals!

However, my brake lights still don't work. (Detailed below.)


Quote: <TABLE class=bordercolor cellSpacing=1 width="90%"><TBODY><TR><TD width="100%"><TABLE class=quote cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=2 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD width="100%">REMEMBER that there are, were in your case once upon a time, 2 wires at the DB labeled as B and 2 labeled as E.

One of the B wires and one of the E wires were wires that went directly to the Sparton turn signal switch.

The other B wire should have come directly from the 3 lever light switch to the DB...this is the brake switch signal to light the brake lights. If I remember right you had something added in this circuit...dont need it if you have a stock pressure switch and a stock 3 lever light switch.</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Though it isn't labelled "B", I believe I have identified it. The Forest Service pulled it out of the harness just after it came through the firewall and routed it through a circuit breaker, as pictured:

http://img415.imageshack.us/img415/9026/wiring5oq.jpg

Both of those terminals are hot whenever the top switch is set to Stop Light, and not hot otherwise. I figured I'll just leave that as it is, eh? It's not hurting anything, or might it interfere with whatever circuit protection is built in to the 3-lever switch. (I just installed a brand new one, BTW.)

Then there are two wires at the stock pressure switch mounted on the driver's frame below the firewall. Both wires are labelled #75 (no #75A) One is hot (when the top lever is set to Stop Light, so I presume it's the other end of the wire off that circuit breaker) and the other is not. Even when the brake pedal is depressed, I get the same. So I am assuming here that my brake switch is faulty.

There was a NAPA replacement for this, as I recall. Wish I could do a search for it! Anyone know off hand?

Re: HELP!!! I'm in turn signal hell
Post by brute4c on May 1, 2006, 1:45pm

The power from the 3 lever light switch should act as you described the 2 wires in that last pic as doing..it should not be on full time to either the brake pressure switch, either side, or the turn signal citcuit. To me, having the power to the turn signals live all the time is just inviting a draw to take out your batteres while the truck sits between uses...I would make sure that I had a positive way to turn the system off to prevent a draw.

I agree your brake switch is bad. On the #75 wires....on the truck they are listed as 75...in the manuals, #75A is shown for one of them, though it doesnt say which...

Quick review...the 3 lever switch, when moved to the stop position, energizes the stop light circuit and the turn signal circuit...this is due to internal wiring in the 3 lever switch...so you should have both of those systems energized when you move the top lever to the right 1 notch.

If I read you right, you are saying that the added circuit breaker is between the 3 lever switch and the brake pressure switch...odd that one would be put in there but whatever...if that is where it is, you can remove the circuit breaker and splice the 2 wire ends together.

For reference, the stock brake lights only should have power as follows:

Power in to 3 lever on pin F
Top switch must be in a position other than center
Power flows from 3 lever switch to one side of brake pressure switch--wire 75
Brake pedal is depressed and pressure is in brake system closing pressure switch
Power flows through 2nd wire 75 back to 3 lever switch
Power flows out from Pin C of 3 lever switch to wire terminal B at DB
Power flows from here to the brake lights on wires 22-460 and 22-461


I dont know that I have the pressure switch interchange...I find nothing at present...sorry...


The power to the 460/461 wire should be coming in as described up the page...if it is live all the time as you indicate, then it has to be coming in from one of these places:

1. straight off the battery
2. from the side of the foot starter switch that has the positive wire from the batteries
3. spliced from this wire or one of its end points:

http://www.m715zone.com/jonmisc/primary.jpg

The large ring terminal a little left of center high in the image labeled as "#5 Alternator Output to Battery, Starter Switch End" is the ring terminal on the foot switch...THE source of power to a stock truck other than to the starter itself...so all power should flow in though here...

Note that there is an end from the alternators output that connects to take charge back to the batteries...doubt that is spliced....

Then there is there horn wire...again doubtful...

The #85, Heater and Spotlight wire is a possible as this wire is often just tucked under the dash unused with a male end on it. This wire I found in my truck one day when I stuck my hand up under there to work on something else and found it was live...someone may have tapped this wire for what you have...

The only other wires go to the on/off switch, after which they are regulated by the switch, and to the 3 lever light switch, Pin F, where it woud not be constantly on.

To put it a little different, only the alternator feed back to the batteries, the horn, wire #85, 2 of the wires at the on/off switch and Pin F of the 3 lever are live when the on/off switch is off.

Personally, I woulld figure out how they did it and redo it back to the correct way...if you lived around here, I would do it for you...up for a rooooooooad trip?

Re: HELP!!! I'm in turn signal hell
Post by binfordm715 on May 1, 2006, 2:03pm


Quote: <TABLE class=bordercolor cellSpacing=1 width="90%"><TBODY><TR><TD width="100%"><TABLE class=quote cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=2 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD width="100%">The power from the 3 lever light switch should act as you described the 2 wires in that last pic as doing..it should not be on full time to either the brake pressure switch, either side, or the turn signal citcuit. To me, having the power to the turn signals live all the time is just inviting a draw to take out your batteres while the truck sits between uses...I would make sure that I had a positive way to turn the system off to prevent a draw.

I agree your brake switch is bad. On the #75 wires....on the truck they are listed as 75...in the manuals, #75A is shown for one of them, though it doesnt say which...

If I read you right, you are saying that the added circuit breaker is between the 3 lever switch and the brake pressure switch...odd that one would be put in there but whatever...if that is where it is, you can remove the circuit breaker and splice the 2 wire ends together.</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

I thought of that (splicing those two ends together and eliminating the circuit breaker). I could also pull another wire off of that splice to feed the 460/461 wire into the new turn signal switch setup. Then the turn signals would not get power unless I moved the top lever. Or do you think I might be inviting trouble doing that?

I'll try looking for a switch at NAPA. I'll do a Google cache search for what that NAPA part number might be....

Thanks for the help!

Re: HELP!!! I'm in turn signal hell
Post by brute4c on May 1, 2006, 2:34pm

I tried searching for over a half hour for that switch number...no luck...wish I had it...

On the wires...you should have a wire from Pin B on the 3 lever to go to the brake lights and a wire from Pin J to go to the turn signal circuit to power it. If you didnt see wires cut off the back of the cannon plug when you put the new switch in, then they must be around somewhere....why not use those?

Re: HELP!!! I'm in turn signal hell
Post by binfordm715 on May 1, 2006, 2:42pm

I wish you had the part number too! No luck in Google. I think Brandon got one recently.

As for the wires, I didn't see any cut wires, but they all disappear into the loom right off the cannon plug, then some reappear as they pass through the firewall. I really don't feel like pulling that cannon plug back off and trying to find where "J" goes! Not when I can just pull power off that brake wire that I'll splice together.

If I remove that stop switch off the block, will that open up my brake lines? I did a search of every PDF in my computer for "stop switch", figuring that would show it in the manuals I have copied, but nothing turned up. Can I just pull that switch off the block, or is there a trick to it?

Re: HELP!!! I'm in turn signal hell
Post by brute4c on May 1, 2006, 3:00pm

If you unscrew the brake pressure switch, it does open the line...it screws into a hole in that block just like the lines do...

If you take a tester and get one side hooked into Pin J then, with an extension chunk of wire hooked to the other probe and the box set in the continuity mode, run around on the wires you have out by the flasher unit and see where it is. Can do the same to verify/find the one from Pin C that should be labeled as B.

These military electrical systems are notorious for draws...having yours setup so that the turn signal system is constantly energized is not a good idea. At the very least, put an on/off master cutoff switch at the battery to turn it off positvely when not in use. If you get any kind of break in a wire of the turn signal circuit, remember the wiring is somewhat ccobbled and isnt anywhere near new, and a path to ground occurs, the system may not be circuit breaker protected through the 3 lever light switch so the whole circuit could burn...all the wire anyway at least...and if that bleeds over into other areas, depending on how it is wired....you are gonna look like that other Tim Taylor having one of his "episodes"....and you wouldnt be the first person in this club it happened to either.

If that turn signal circuit is always live, I would definitely change that to provide it and you protection. The logical way to do that is to make use of the on board circuit breaker intended for that purpose...in the 3 lever switch...

I do have some extra metal tags for the wires...I should have any of these you are missing...let me know which ones you need and they are yours...

Re: HELP!!! I'm in turn signal hell
Post by binfordm715 on May 1, 2006, 3:18pm


Quote: <TABLE class=bordercolor cellSpacing=1 width="90%"><TBODY><TR><TD width="100%"><TABLE class=quote cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=2 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD width="100%">If you unscrew the brake pressure switch, it does open the line...it screws into a hole in that block just like the lines do...</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Great.... Seems I'd then have to bleed the entire system afterward, eh? PITA. The brakes work GREAT right now. That's one thing I really didn't want to monkey with (sorry X).


Quote: <TABLE class=bordercolor cellSpacing=1 width="90%"><TBODY><TR><TD width="100%"><TABLE class=quote cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=2 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD width="100%">If you take a tester and get one side hooked into Pin J then, with an extension chunk of wire hooked to the other probe and the box set in the continuity mode, run around on the wires you have out by the flasher unit and see where it is. Can do the same to verify/find the one from Pin C that should be labeled as B.</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

BTW, I haven't mentioned it, but I have no loose wires under the hood. There's the mystery power feed (the always-hot one I currently--pardon the pun--have the TS switch powered by), and one other cut wire that I've determined is for the B/O driving light that is missing on my truck. All the rest were letter-labeled as discussed earlier and all now have happy homes with their mates. So I really don't know what wire I'd test for continuity with the "J" pin.


Quote: <TABLE class=bordercolor cellSpacing=1 width="90%"><TBODY><TR><TD width="100%"><TABLE class=quote cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=2 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD width="100%">These military electrical systems are notorious for draws...having yours setup so that the turn signal system is constantly energized is not a good idea. At the very least, put an on/off master cutoff switch at the battery to turn it off positvely when not in use.</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Good tip. A battery disconnect wouldn't be a bad idea anyway.


Quote: <TABLE class=bordercolor cellSpacing=1 width="90%"><TBODY><TR><TD width="100%"><TABLE class=quote cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=2 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD width="100%">If that turn signal circuit is always live, I would definitely change that to provide it and you protection. The logical way to do that is to make use of the on board circuit breaker intended for that purpose...in the 3 lever switch...</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

I could do that if I had a loose wire that could be traced to the "J" pin.


Quote: <TABLE class=bordercolor cellSpacing=1 width="90%"><TBODY><TR><TD width="100%"><TABLE class=quote cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=2 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD width="100%">I do have some extra metal tags for the wires...I should have any of these you are missing...let me know which ones you need and they are yours...</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Very kind of you, but with the sole exception of the mysterious hot feed and the cut B/O driving light wire, every other wire is still factory-labeled and accounted for.

I'll look for a potential "J" pin wire in the loom under the dash. Otherwise I'll just pull switched power off that brake line when I splice the two ends in that aftermarket circuit breaker together.

(edited for clarity)

Re: HELP!!! I'm in turn signal hell
Post by brute4c on May 1, 2006, 3:24pm

Look what I found....searched some J truck boards and found a guy who used this brake switch in a 68 as we use it....I know that the splitter block we use in the brakes is THE SAME as a 66 Wagoneer uses...thats where mine came from as I had to replace it...and the same pressure switch screws into it....

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/xq/asp...qx/product.htm

It sure looks like the right one...

Re: HELP!!! I'm in turn signal hell
Post by binfordm715 on May 1, 2006, 3:28pm

Hey! Cool! I didn't even think to ask about cross-compatibility! I'll run over to NAPA and ask for a brake switch for a '66 Wagoneer.

I can just hear it now: "What engine's in it?" Heh, heh, heh....

Thanks, Jon.....