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  #1  
Old September 26th, 2008, 08:38 PM
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What I have is a Cummins 4BT remanned by Recon Diesel Co. (read Cummins). It was pulled from a Frito Lay truck prior to remanufacture. It retains the flywheel and aparatus for the auto transmission. I'm mating this engine to a 3053-A. The bellhousing on the engine and transmission already match up.


My question is this: Do I need to replace the flywheel or just pull the flywheel and remove the automatic tranny parts (if possible)? Also, I have a dry rear seal - is this correct or do I need a wet rear seal?


Never run into this problem, so I have no point of reference. If I'm missing something... please feel free to point out my ignorance.

Cummins Service (2 seperate shops) looked at it and had no solutions. Actually, both said they had never seen this setup on a flywheel. They are a slave to the computer and there is no description for the flywheel - only part numbers.

Cummins Customer Service is about to recieve my boot in an unpleasant place and in a decidedly unreasonable manner. They have bent over backwards (twice) to not give me a PN for a manual transmission flywheel. They even tried to bluff me with the EPA regulations as one of the reasons not to give me the part number. It's a sorry world....

Thanks guys,
Snuffy
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Old September 27th, 2008, 05:45 AM
gun512 gun512 is offline
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Well if you are looking for a PN for a manual tranny flywheel for a 4bt. First it is the same mounting as the 6bt, second, there are hundreds of flywheel/clutch combo's for the 4bt/6bt manual tranny's. Light duty/medium duty from early 90's ford, freightliner, etc..etc.. So if you are looking for the exact part#, good luck. I have yet to get it. I have a part number for a 14" flywheel but was told by ATT transmission, (they bought out the spicer/eaton medium duty trans line) that a 14" would not fit due to where the ring gear is placed. I am mating my 6bt to a spicer 3053 as well. i am using the SAE#3 bellhousing and will just use the upgraded size flywheel 13" from a light duty dodge, with a valair 13"clutch. Most any clutch manufacturer can change the input shaft diameter of the clutch to whatever you want.

So all in all i am just using a 1 ton dodge clutch with the clutch modified to fit the 1.5in/10 Spline shaft. I know a 93 ford f600 with a 5.9 uses a SAE#3 flywheel but i think uses a clutch disk that is 1.75in/10spline. I have talked several hours with valeo, southbend, valair, cummins, and some heavy truck suppliers to get the right set-up. I could just run a c70 clutch set-up, but i am wanting to turn my 12v up quite a bit. And the valair is rated for 500hp/1000tq. AN easy fix for you would be to get an SAE#3 bellhousing, a regular 12in flywheel and clutch from a dodge cummins truck and get the clutch manufacturer to put the 1.5in/10spline set-up for the clutch. The HD pilot bearing for the dodge cummins also have a ID of .750 which is what you want for the spicer 3053 input shaft.
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Old September 27th, 2008, 01:48 PM
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There isn't any point in getting upset with the cummins folks. They do their job, and quite honestly, their job description doesn't include helping you put together a mismatch of parts. They don't have any more information than you do, and quite probably, less. Cummins builds engines to a particular customers specifications, and sells them. That's Cummins with a capital "C". Corporate engineers do that, not Hadji behind the parts desk. There are literally hundreds of possible combinations, and if you don't have specific knowledge of something, you aren't going to find it in a parts reference.. All the guy behind the counter has is the CPL# (control parts list) and what parts go on it. You need to check with a medium duty truck shop for that particular conversion. Gun512 is correct in the fact that you should use an SAE 3 or SAE 2 flywheel housing, as the 3053 from a duece already has a bell housing to mate to it.

What you are trying to do is cool, but it is a puzzle that you have to figure out yourself. Holding some guy responsible because you don't know what you need is pretty much ridiculous in my book. I understand your frustration, but if you want it, gotta pull them britches up a tad and do it yourself.

Doug

4btswaps.com is a very good resource for various bits of information as well, but I can't say that I've seen the specific question answered there. Still wouldn't be a bad place to look, ad there are a few swaps over there using SAE type bell housings and transmissions.

Last edited by dahoyle; September 27th, 2008 at 01:52 PM.
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Old September 28th, 2008, 12:50 AM
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I found dozens of set-ups that use a flywheel and clutch set-up that would work for the swap but, they are all either 1.75 or 2.00 in input shafts. That is the big kicker. And the highest rated clutch i found factory with a 1.5input out of a medium duty was something like 500ft lb's. I understand that is in a medium duty truck, but i don't want to take the chance of turning my motor up and smoking a clutch in the first few months.
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Old September 28th, 2008, 08:50 AM
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As dahoyle ponted out, . .your engineering a special application is out of the range of the parts guy's realm. Most "parts guy's" are just that, . . .parts guys, . .they know their way around the manual, computer, etc. and can find that part (once they figure out the part number) wherever it is on the planet. However, they often times are NOT mechanics, and certainly not engineers. What you need is one of those seasoned mechanics that works for an independent shop, whose hands are permanently the color of diesel soot,. . the independent shop guy will have the advantage in this type of situation because they are often approached with the similar question, . . "I have this, ..and this. ..and this. . .can you make it work?",, . .and because they have been in the trenches, . .there is a good chance they can point you in the right direction. . .
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Old September 28th, 2008, 10:28 AM
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Autoworld in Montana does quite a bit of cummins conversions, you might give them a call. They have a website. There is a place back east in one of the Carolina's, M-Series Rebuild that repowers a lot of military vehicles, they have a website too, I think he would probably know. I think his name is Charles Talbert. Look up a website for a Dodge M-37 by garbee, he has lots of info on 4bt swaps. There is also a website for 4bt conversions that you might be able to get that info on. Hope this helps and good luck.
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Old September 28th, 2008, 11:55 AM
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http://www.powerwagonadvertiser.com/...ead.php?t=3668

More info along the same lines.

I really do feel your pain, because it is something that I have thought about.

Currently have the complete GM adapter set to go with my Cummins, but the engine itself has a SAE3 adapter on it. Was thinking of using a Spicer or possibly a Roadranger behind it.

The info is out there, you just have to dig for it, and then question what you read. There is at least as inaccurate information from people repeating what they have heard, as there is good information.

Doug
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Old September 28th, 2008, 12:15 PM
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Thanks, guys!

I was only trying to get a PN for ANY manual clutch fry wheel for the 4BT. I can work out a clutch for it from that point.

I understand that there are numerous combinations associated with these engines. No one - not even Cummins techs or customer service - can tell me which flywheel is for a manual transmission application. I've been to 6 diesel shops (two of which were Cummins service/dealers) and no one has a inkling of where to start to find which fly wheel will fit. That seems like a problem in how the information is presented from Cummins.

__________________________________________________ __________
As far a Cummins Customer Service - I haven't asked them to try to help me piece together my transmission/engine. I explained that their point of contact - their service center's mechanics - had no information on how to distinguish between the flywheels. They only had a series of options on parts that had no specifications as to application, size, ect. My question to them was: given the SAE#3 bellhousing and engine model - what is the appropriate flywheel for a manual tranmission?

What exactly does EPA regulations have to do with this question??? It was just an attempt to dazzle me with BS (and likely a stock anwser) that really got under my skin. Why not a simple,helpful answer like, "we don't actually help with problems, try contacting XXXX because the field mechanics don't have access to this information."
__________________________________________________ _________

I have cruised 4BTswaps and a couple other sites looking for solutions in the last couple of months - without success. You guys have thrown out a couple of good suggestion on where to look. I appreciate the information!!! That's my next route.

Snuffy
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Old September 28th, 2008, 12:43 PM
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Again, the problem does not lie with Cummins. All they offer is the powerplant.

They are used by so many different equipment manufacturers in so many applications, that have absolutely nothing to do with Cummins, that there is no reason that they should or would know.

If you needed a part for your Case tractor, that just happened to have a Cummins engine in it, then you go to the Case dealer. Same thing if it's a Freightliner, or a Grumman box van. Yes, Cummins is a possible source for some of those parts, but aside from going from a known part number, to the parts bin, there is very little that they can do. If you don't even have so much as a CPL# or a recognized application, then why do you think they would know any more than you do? It is my understanding that there are close to 30 flywheel options for a B-series engine with an SAE #3 bellhousing.

As far as the EPA question, if is in fact quite a valid concern, altho I'm not sure how they could be drug into it if there was an issue with your build, all the 4BT's are designed with a CPL, and that has quite a lot to do with emissions. You cannot legally run an offroad 4BT in a vehicular application. They will even have a tag on the front cover stating if they are EPA/CARB approved for onroad or offroad.

Again, it does no good to bellyache about the system that Cummins uses. It's their system, so you need to learn to work within it. The truth of the matter is that you and your swap are not even a flyspeck on their windshield. They are setup to service fleets and large corporations, and people who know exactly what they want. I'm surprised that you have been given the assistance that you have, even tho it was unproductive.
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Old September 28th, 2008, 01:24 PM
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Like i was saying, the simple easy fix is use the SAE#3, then get a flywheel and from a cummins powered dodge. Say a 95 3/4 ton dodge cummins with a 5speed. Get the flywheel from whoever, NAPA, Advanced Auto, you choose. and then call a clutch manufacturer and get an OE style clutch for that same year truck with the 1.5in on 10spline input. All done. The only thing i have not tracked down is the starter for the set-up. But i beleive the same year model dodge cummins starter will work.
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