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Thread: asbestosglove : Head Gasket Source

  1. #11

    Default redneck1 :

    Re: Head Gasket Source
    Post by redneck1 on Apr 11, 2006, 10:26am

    I went with a civvy fuel pump and picked up the vacuum from the intake.
    Redneck1

  2. #12

    Default rpgdeity :

    Re: Head Gasket Source
    Post by rpgdeity on Apr 11, 2006, 8:59pm

    Thank you so much Brute4c for that awesome tech. I do have another question, I was looking at on online parts database and for 1967 it listed the Jeep Gladiator has having either a 3.8L 230 or a 3.8L 232. Anybody know anything about this? I'm not sure if it pertains to my situations, but I was curious. I find the history of these old engines rather fascinating.

    One other thing, not that I don't beleive one person or another, its simply that I am getting conflicting information. Robert Cowan, would it be possible for you to post a pic of the civilian head gasket next to the military head gasket? I would just like to see a pic of both of them to identify the differences.

    I am worried about the possible gasket differences because I just got done talking with the local autoparts store and all they were able to find was a complete engine gasket kit for a 230 for a Gladiator (they said the kit came with every gasket needed to rebuild the engine, not that I want to do that, but at least I'll have every gasket), and its not that bad of a price either. I'd like to go with that because I kinda need the gaskets quick. Anyway, thank you everyone for all the information thus far, hope someone can answer my other questions.

  3. #13

    Default xtreme :

    Re: Head Gasket Source
    Post by xtreme on Apr 11, 2006, 9:12pm

    The 230 is a kaiser engine and the 232 is the AMC I6 very different engine to the 230.

    (--- The AMC 232 inline 6 uses a cast iron block and cylinder head with hydraulic lifters and 7 main bearings. It was the standard engine in CJs from '72-'78 and in '65-'70 J-series pickups and Wagoneers. ---)

    So over time the Gladiator or J-trucks were fitted with first the 230 and then the AMC 232, 258 and the V8s.

    Kaiser 230 OHC I6 "Tornado"(63-66)
    AMC 327 V8 "Vigilante" (65-66)
    AMC 232 I6 (67-70)
    Buick 350 V8 "Dauntless" (67-70)
    AMC 258 I6 (71-end of J truck production)
    AMC 304 V8 (71-73)
    AMC 360 V8 2 bbl. (71-end)
    AMC 360 V8 4 bbl. (74-end J-xx models)
    AMC 401 V8 4 bbl. (74-end J-xx models)


    (--- In 1965 Jeep changed the model number to a four digit number with the exception of the J-100 panel delivery truck. In 1967 the two wheel drive models were dropped. In 1970, the Gladiators received the same style grill as the Wagoneer, which was the first styling change since its introduction. 1971 marked the end of the 3000 series and in 1972 the "Gladiator" name was dropped and the J trucks were simply called Jeep trucks. ---)

  4. #14

    Default xtreme :

    Re: Head Gasket Source
    Post by xtreme on Apr 11, 2006, 9:35pm

    I can assure you that I used civilian gaskets on my truck when I rebuilt the head. Also, if anything I would listen to Jon because as the Zone Admin he wouldn't want to give you incorrect information and most all information provided has been proven by other zone members.

    They still make a top end gasket set for the civilian 230 engine...I used a set on mine and you can get them at NAPA. It's that simple.

  5. #15

    Default rpgdeity :

    Re: Head Gasket Source
    Post by rpgdeity on Apr 11, 2006, 9:49pm

    Hey, thanks for the engine information. That makes sense now, I've heard people refer to a 232 in older Jeeps, didn't know if that was a misprint of 230, or if it was a different engine.

    I'm going to go ahead and order that gasket kit from my local autoparts store. Not sure how soon I'll be replacing the head gasket, but when I do I'll take pics just for the record. Guess I'll know then for sure if they are the same or not, lol.

  6. #16

    Default xtreme :

    Re: Head Gasket Source
    Post by xtreme on Apr 11, 2006, 9:56pm

    Your welcome...



    That will be 25 dollars please (cha ching!)


    hehehe

  7. #17
    Join Date
    Sep 1998
    Location
    North Central Wisconsin
    Posts
    11,520

    Default brute4c :

    Re: Head Gasket Source
    Post by brute4c on Apr 11, 2006, 10:10pm

    There is an older engine to mention in the mix...the 226. It predates the 230 OHC by a few years and was a flathead design...why is this important? According to the Mitchell Interchange Manual from 1964 and 1965, the 230 will boltinto the engine compartment of the 226, same mounts on the civilian version, AND bolt to the same transmission.

    Radically different designs, flathead and OHC, but the 226 is the only other engine in the entire Jeep lineup that shares anything directly with the 230 OHC.

    I have seen books that list the 230 OHC as late as 68 for the civvy type...but the factory actually built the engines up to 65...they were used in vehicles up to then though some of the vehicles are dated later, like 67, though they were built in 65...I know because the engine I bought from the civvy truck was dated November of 65 right on the block stamp...the title said the truck was a 67...the owner told me he bought it in 67...seems the truck was built in 65 but sat on the dealers lot...it sold in 67 and so was titled as new as a 67 truck...

    I know of members who have purchased the full gasket set and used most of them in a rebuild...timing cover wont work but almost all the rest will including the head gasket...it has been done several times.

  8. #18

    Default xtreme :

    Re: Head Gasket Source
    Post by xtreme on Apr 11, 2006, 10:26pm

    The 226 cid Flathead (L-head) inline six cylinder engine.



    There was also a factory supercharged version of this engine.

  9. #19

    Default rpgdeity :

    Re: Head Gasket Source
    Post by rpgdeity on Apr 11, 2006, 10:41pm

    That is some more cool info. Very cool pic of an old engine. Wonder what kinda HP the supercharged version cranked out, lol. I can't imagine a whole lot. Has anybody done any drastic "performance" modifications to the 230 to try to get more power out of it? Right now my 230 has a 12V conversion, distributor with the vacuum advance, and 2-barrel Holley. Is that pretty much all I can do to it? I've heard from many people that those engines in stock form "flattened" cams (I'm guessing they mean that the cam lobes wore, but not quite sure as to what would prematurely cause this) if you tried to push the 230 very much. My ultimate plan is to eventually go with a different engine/trans, but for right now I am happy with the 230 and I will run it until I have major problems with it.

    The thing that also peaked my apprehension about gasket interchange is that Robert Cowan is selling the civ. head gasket for $25, and the NOS military gasket for $100. Major difference if they will both work. I guess if somebody can't stand anything other than military parts in a military engine it might be important, I just want a gasket that works, lol.

    I know I'm kinda getting off topic from the original title of this thread, but I hope nobody minds, I have one more oddball question: What would be the reasoning of including 8.5:1 compression pistons in the 2-barrel carb 230 versus the 7.5:1 compression pistons in the 1-barrel carb engine? Is it just more compression for more air/fuel flow?

    I know that I've pretty much hijacked a simple question thread, but this 230 information is just so awesome.

  10. #20
    Join Date
    Sep 1998
    Location
    North Central Wisconsin
    Posts
    11,520

    Default brute4c :

    Re: Head Gasket Source
    Post by brute4c on Apr 12, 2006, 8:59am

    We have found out that the civvy and mil head gaskets ARE different and NOT interchangeable.

    The compression ratio in the 2 barrel could be either the lower or higher ratio...the higher ratio had a bit more horsepower, possibly done to offset the loss of low end torque that happens when moving to the 2 barrel from the one barrel...bigger carb does that.

    Notice the bellhousing in that pic of the 226? Compare to the 230's...only thing going that is even close...and it is real close...ours is real weird because it is in the family with even older than itself technology...

    Flattened cams are, as you surmised, cams that have been worn down to the point where full lift is not being achieved at the valve any longer. A new cam would need to be installed or it is possible with some companies to have the old cam reground...the lobes are built up and then ground back to spec...some places will even change the cam to a more performance grind when doing this procedure, though I wouldnt have a clue what the profile for a good performance cam would be for this engine...I do not know of more than 1 grind being used by the factory in American built 230's.

    As far as high perf 230's....there were several models of them built, but they were not built in the US...Argentina was the place to find them. For US models, the 2 barrel and civvy ignition are the easy upgrades...one could drill and tap the one bolt hole on a civvy head, maybe have to do some machine work to make sure its straight and the seats are good, etc. and bolt it on for the extra point of compression. Thats about all with factory parts. The Argentine built ones ran from roughly the 140 horse level of the American version up to somewhere around 300 horsepower. They ran the basic setup of a 4 main block up to about 220 horse and then used their own redesigned 7 main bearing block for higher output applications...those numbers are from memory and are subject to error but there is a split in that range...
    A couple things they did to increase power were to enlarge the engine in cubic inch up to 265 or so...put on dual and triple carb setups with 3 dual throat Webers being the top dog...compression ratios went as high are 11:1, cams were ground with much more radical profiles, dual exhaust headers were also utilized where the front 3 cylinders fed into one header and the rear 3 into the other...a 2 pipe collector joined these 2 headers in the engine compartment. The intake side of the head was completely redseigned to fit the muliple carbs...instead of the "hallway" that our engines use between the intake manifold and the actual cylinder ports, the decided to do it like a regular engine...the side of the head was cut away and a plate was bolted directly to the side of the head at the ports...this plate had round tubes about 3 inches long or so bolted to it...these tubes, on the non-head end, had the carbs bolted to them. So there was a 2 piece intake basically with an adapter plate at the head side and a set of plenum tubes to bolt the carb to and bolt to the adapter plate. Both the 2 carb and 3 carb setups used that design with differing numbers of plenum tubes.

    If you look around, there are pics on the net of these...they were raced for many years, even in international ccompetition in cars running at pretty high speeds...I think around 175 to 180 mph or so was the highest I found...the manufacturer was Industrias Kaiser Argentina (IKA)...they even made a 4 cylinder version at one point...

    "Also, a very few units (about 6) built as prototypes for military use, were factory-equipped with the very rare 154 cu. in Tornado 4-cylinder OHC engine (a 4-cylinder version of the 230 Tornado straight six). They were sent to Chile, but after some testing, they were rejected by the Chilean army. Those units were later sold to the Bolivian army."

    That is from this page if you are interested:

    http://www.film.queensu.ca/CJ3B/World/Argentina.html

    Also, another note on the 230 and 226 engines, often I hear people say the 230 is a Continental engine instead of it being a Kaiser engine...it is a Kaiser engine BUT the 226 is a Continental...I acredit this in some measure to the odd overlap in interchangeability between the 2 causing confusion...

    I think I am done for now...I have work to do on the Zone...
    Last edited by brute4c; December 16th, 2009 at 12:46 PM.

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